Discussion - Game of Thrones [Spoilers]

[Telemachus]

Hello you depraved bastards and bastardettes.

I'm sure some of us are watching the new GoT episodes and awaiting each with bated breath. So far, I'm a little disppointed. In general I'd say Ep. 1 of the latest season was pretty good and Ep. 2 was mostly meh.

This season is apparently the last, meaning we have between 7 - 9 hours (Depending on whether we get some double-length eps) to depict the biggest war in Westeros since Robert's Rebellion. That might not seem to intimidating for 7 episodes, but we have to tackle this war from quite a few perspectives. On the large-scale we have at least Daenerys, the Lannisters w/ Euron Greyjoy, Dorne/Highgarden, The North, and the army of the dead. On top of that, the show follows a multitude of separated characters within and without those fronts. All this to me suggest the season is going to be a let-down, as I'm sceptical that this one season can cover it all sufficiently.

With all that in mind, watching the Ep. 2 was pretty torturous. I come to GoT for a dark, gruesome low-magic fantasy epic. I didn't come to sit around waiting for Grey Worm and that chick (Bodacious though she be) to rub on each other for five unbroken minutes. Every second that passes that isn't dedicated to the real and interesting goings-on of Westeros is, to me, ominous and painful.

The overarching plot has definitely hooked me though. The dragons are soon to ravage the 7 kingdoms, the secret plots of the earlier seasons have come to fruition, all the great and little powers are aligning themselves and trying to figure out who is their strongest enemy and ally. And of course the inevitable wrenches are already falling into people's plots, like the Euron taking out Daenerys' fleet and Arya decimating the Freys.

Some more quibbling notes:

- Arya finding Nymeria the wolf was dumb and pointless. At the very least, it better have a pay-off later.

- Grey Worm and his lady were a complete waste of time. Thankfully we're spared also seeing much of the Sam/Gilly bullshit.

- The dragon glass deposit on Dragonstone introduces a really neat piece of geo-politics into the show

- I feel the show would do better to focus on certain stories for each episode. For example, Arya and her wolf. I assume there is a pay-off coming and I think it would have been better to cut the meeting scene out of the episode we've seen and stick it into a later episode (when that plot thread has more relevance). It seems like a set-up, but it just pops up, and then goes nowhere with no indication anything will come of it.

- The fall of Yara's Iron Fleet felt a little too easy. Euron may be a ruthless bastard, but so is Yara. The idea that they could be taken completely by surprise was a bit of a stretch. They are essentially in enemy territory, you'd think those on watch would be a bit jumpy and on the lookout for anything. Perhaps they were over-confident, I suppose that would not be out of character for the show (Even if it is for these characters).

All in all, I'm looking forward apprehensively to the rest of the season.

 

[MarcusBrody]

rather good summary!

 

[Telemachus]

The third episode of season seven has aired and I found it very satisfying.

The war is ramping up and we've got some really great developments.

The interaction between Daenerys and Jon Snow was predictably chilly, but it feels like two proud forces who, despite saying neither was too fond of the other and neither wanting to budge, got essentially what they wanted: Daenerys has a tentative ally in the North, and Jon's got the dragon glass for the Long Night (without bending the knee at that). Jon really is a great brooder, eh?

The dragons made a cameo and Jon made a small (but apparently insignificant) show of fear to Daenerys' men. I thought his (justifiable, really) cowering might come up in conversation. Whatever, it was a great way for Daenerys to impress her military assets' power upon her guests.

The tactical surrender of Casterly Rock surprised me, but I suppose the Lannisters are more concerned with advancing themselves and winning than with sentimentality. In any case, Daenerys has suffered another defeat. We haven't seen the real results, but it would appear that the Unsullied have been bested by being caught out at sea and if Jaime Lannister has pegged the situation, Casterly Rock is an untenable position.

However, he seemed to suggest that the Unsullied would be forced to march across land once giving up the Rock. This, he says, is a problem for them, but I would say not so. With very little likelihood of attack from the North given Arya's schemes, and given the Unsullied are land war specialists, methinks he underestimates them.

The sea attack sort of bothers me. By my reckoning the fleet would have had to sail completely around the south of the Westerosi continent. If so, they did it damn fast. Not only that, but Euron's fleet had enough time to butcher Yara's and make it all the way to the Unsullied fleet and catch them in the act. It would seem the Unsullied fleet was poorly equipped to deal with a naval attack.

While the Unsullied captured an empty castle, the Lannisters' full army marched on Highgarden and quickly dispatched the capital's defenders. This is a damn decisive battle that was fought off screen. While that's annoying, it is heartening with what I mentioned in the last episode about using their screen time wisely. Highgarden has fallen and with that Cersei's position has grown considerably stronger, which is the important bit. The bleeding effect of their massive debts may have just been all but eliminated and then some.

I was sad to see Olenna Tyrell ended, but I was glad she got to relish the look on Jamie's face when she confessed to murdering Joffrey so long ago. I think we all ought to drink to her memory.

As loathsome as Cersei is, I'm a little glad she got her revenge on the Dornish. I never liked them much anyway. I thought she was going to get the Mountain to defile the daughter in front of the mother, which was an awful thing to dread, but quite in keeping with Cersei's brutality. Mercifully, mother Sand Snake just has to watch daughter Sand Snake die in agony (Sorry, I've forgotten all their names except Oberyn. As I said, I never cared for the Dornish).

So, we have Daenerys with an ally (or at least someone who won't stab her in the back while dealing with King's Landing), but a potentially useless castle on the other side of the continent occupied by some of her strongest troops, and without much of a fleet; Cersei with a fleet, a suitor (I must say I grudgingly like Euron, if only because he makes Lannisters recoil. His taunting of Jaime just tickles me pink), one less enemy, and a mountain of gold.

Finally, in a side note we find that Bran "The Three Eyed Raven" Stark has finally been reunited with Sansa at Winterfell.

Little Finger did his thing, Sansa did her new thing where she's all snippy with him, and she showed how she's learned to command and be strong after her time in King's Landing.

To be honest, I don't much like it. Maybe I am still affected by her old behaviour and find this a strange turn. But I think she's just not as strong as she thinks she is and now she's really trying to play it up.

I think this episode benefitted from what I said the others lacked, which was a greater focus on just a couple stories. We saw nothing of Arya's or the slew of minor character's personal lives (except Sam, but that was also quick. Not as quick as I'd like, but he cured Jorah Mormont, yay, great, move it along). It was almost all about the greater action, the give and take, the move and counter-move. I loved it.

My only complaint is that, like the attack on Yara's fleet, nobody seems to know anybody else is coming. The Unsullied had apparently no idea the Iron Fleet was bearing down on them, nobody seemed to notice an army of thousands of men had marched south to Highgarden. The only piece of intel anyone apparently gathered was on the part of the Lannisters with respect to the Unsullied attack.

So much for Varys' little birds.

I think that's about everything I can recall at the moment. What did you think of the episode? What do you think in store for the episodes to come?

 

[Alex]

I really enjoyed the third episode, one of my favourite so far. Finally seeing Jon and Daenrys on screen together was nice, and that whole scene was shot so well. A lot of clever camera work.

 

[Telemachus]

Well first I'd like to correct a mistake I've made in the past few posts: This is apparently the penultimate season, but I'd been under the impression it was the last. I'm quite glad to have been mistaken.

So, episode 4!

This is what I've been hoping for. We've got some big and small developments, all of them welcome.

The Stark brood are almost completely reunited and it's about damn time too. I don't know if it was necessary to demonstrate just how profoundly these characters have changed since we've lived their changed throughout the seasons: A bastard to a king, a child to assassin, a boy to allseer, and a girl to seasoned Lady. I suppose it doesn't hurt to underscore their changes and how they may have changed in ways each Stark may disapprove. I did like Arya's sparring match with Lady Brienne. It was short, but intense.

Daenerys and Jon have grown closer. My impression is the show is going to see a marital alliance between the two but given they're cousins they may wind up feeling put off by the prospect, though it certainly wouldn't be too far fetched for pair of Targaryens. We also get to see the dragon glass vein and have a little hippie speech. Hurray, I guess.

Cersei, for as much as I hate her, had landed herself a victory in the last episode. High Garden has fallen and with it its tremendous load of food and gold. The Lannisters pay their onerous debt and with such a tremendous victory have nearly secured investment of the Iron Bank, a force behind the scenes that could spell major victory for Cersei. A fully bank-rolled army and navy could stave off the need for Euron, not to mention bring victory far easier.

In the last episode we saw that Cersei, gorging on power and glory, has retaken Jaime as he lover and is now jubilant, and uncaring of who knows she's blowing her brother. I suspect this will not pay off for her in the end if the war goes bad for her, but all is looking well until...

FUCK YEAH DRAGONS! BURNINATING THE COUNTRYSIDE!

This is what I've been waiting for. Death and destruction in dragon fire.

I was worrying Daenerys might be stingy with her most formidable force, but it turns out she's actually overconfident and in the first damn engagement she manages to a) demonstrate the effectiveness of the Lannisters ballista (So far, one good shot brings them down) b) almost get herself killed by charging directly at said ballista while someone is using it and c) almost get herself killed by just standing around in the middle of a battle.

I kinda wish Jaime had managed to gore the dumb cunt. Now there's a great twist. Oh well, one can dream.

The loot from High Garden is brought to King's Landing. The gold is secured but all of the food is destroyed by Rhaegon and Daenerys in a lovely, brutal display of draconian ferocity.

Scores of Lannisters are burned alive in their first encounter with a dragon, Jaime is at a loss for words as his plans crumble around him and his forces are reduced to blowing ash. A solid blow to the Lannisters plans for sure. Siege has just become a more viable option for Daenerys.

The dragon attack was awesome, I loved it and it provided a swift and menacing counterstrike to Cersei's plotting. I was happy for her revenge last episode, but I'm back to detesting her. Her imperial designs must be dashed at every turn for me to be happy.

As I've mentioned before, the logistics of the battles remain lost in the background. This may not be a bad thing for the pacing and development of the show, but I wouldn't mind a couple extra lines like "My spiders tell me High Garden has fallen" or "one of our scouts was captured. We believe the Lannisters may know of our plans for Casterly Rock."

These would add some context to the various attacks. Either that, or some time frames would be nice because, for example, the time it would take for the sack of High Garden plus the return of Cersei's troops to King's Landing and the time it took for Daenerys to learn of this fact, come up with a plot, and have her Dothraki March to intercept is just totally up in the air.

I'm still chewing on how the Euron's fleet is getting around the whole continent so damn fast as to be at both the destruction of Yara's AND the Unsullied fleets.

But this episode was damn satisfying. Daenerys can find some hope in a military success which hurts the resilience of her enemy, and Cersei finds her own with the mortality of the dragon she now firmly established. Neither has an easy task at their respective ambitious, but the battle is sure to be entertaining.

 

[angelique]

Unfortunately the tv series have completely messed up Dorne. Missing characters and sand snakes not being all they are in the books. Also that Dragon animation was awful.

I am still awaiting Winds of Winter as sadly the tv series is quite weak in comparison

 

[Telemachus]

Correction: Daenerys would be Jon's aunt, not cousin.

I thought the dragon animation was great, though the show's effects have always been a tad obvious (increasingly obvious as you go backward through the series).

As I'd mentioned before, I generally found the books cumbersome and tiresome. I don't think I got to the Sand Snakes though, so maybe they are a regrettable omission.

 

[Telemachus]

Much anticipated and finally here, Episode 5 was predictably less bombastic than the last. While less dragon-oriented, we nonetheless has a decent array of developments which will doubtless prove to be a source of endless speculation. As for the events about which we can be more certain:

There is rising concern about the threat posed by the White Walker Army. I've been very, very curious how they might approach this as until recently the world of Westeros had a very low-magic feel. We all know that magic and magical beasts are objectively present in the world but the civilized world of Westeros seemed largely ignorant of their existence. Given the White Walkers were above the wall and seen only by a bunch of thieves, bastards, and rapers, it's no surprise they might have a hard time convincing proper Lords and Ladies of their fantastical claims.

Dragons as well have only recently come back to life, with the first being seen by a major house in Westeros last episode. Wargs, shadowy-assassin-babies, and reanimated men like Jon Snow and Beric Dondarrion have all found homes in crannies away from noble eyes.

With all that, I'm finding that the players in the Game as we have it before us would be some of the BEST to find this far-off threat credible, and thus be unlikely to let it simply slaughter them unprepared.

Daenerys has dragons and they're now in Westeros. Cersei has felt their flame indirectly, Jaime first-handed, and Jon even fist-handeder. It would seem Daenerys' dragons recognise Jon is also Dragonborn. Come to think of it this could be the start of a split between Jon and Daenerys. If, as the sequence where Jon pets the dragon hints at slightly, Jon has an affinity with the dragons, he may be able to wrest some control of these ultimate weapons from Daenerys. I doubt he would like it, but it might not be too farfetched considering he is the person most single-mindedly concerned with the incoming White Walker invasion.

Sam is in the south doing his best to convince the Maesters to spread the word of the impending threat... Or he WAS until he recklessly took off with a bunch of scrolls he appeared to grab at random (Maybe they were specific, but he literally grabbed an unmarked scroll, above his head and out of sight, from a pile of insistinguiahable unmarked scrolls).

I'm sure it will be revealed that he'll discover some long-lost lore that will be essential to the fight ahead, but I find myself annoyed at his behaviour at the moment. I suppose as a tubby untermensch it is not outside the realm of possibility that he might find a little spark of glorious motivation. As he says, he's sick of reading about the accomplishments of other greater men. It seems to me that if he finds a way, and probably one of the best is dogged persistence, to convince the Maesters that the White Walkers are real, he could almost single-handedly save millions of lives. The show seems to really like Sam, so we'll see what happens. I'm still glad Gilly is essentially non-existent this season.

[As a side note to the above, Cersei also has the benefit of actually having her very own undead human by her side at pretty much all times. While I don't think it's ever been fully revealed, the Mountain was evidently reanimated as a silent monster through some alchemical arcana. The specific threat of White Walkers might not be fully credible to Cersei, but she understands the dangers and realities of the undead.]

The White Walkers have proven to be a political point of interest for all sides in this war. Jon may have a genuine interest in them, but Daenerys and Cersei, as sceptical opposing queens, see this as a potential element in a ploy to undermine each other. I suspect that Daenerys gives more creedence to the truth of the matter as Jon is clearly growing on her, but she hasn't forgot she came here to chew bubble gum and unite the seven kingdoms. We have seen the machinations and gears turning. Daenerys, after giving Cersei a decidedly bloody and uncompromising left hook, is now offering to meet her enemy to discuss terms of armistice.

I expect Cersei will make an attempt on Daenerys' life. Or a cat fight! That'd be awesome and hilarious.

We also have the reveal that Cersei is pregnant, apparently with Jaime's child. She has gone full Targaryen, ironically enough, and has no more intention of hiding her incestuous acts. She intends to live in the light. As she quote her father: "The lion does not concern himself with the opinions of sheep." Hopefully she takes a good look at her haircut every morning while pondering that one. Jaime doesn't seem thrilled by the idea. He even looked a little horrified by this revelation, if briefly. Maybe it was just surprise.
In any case, as if Cersei weren't already a rabid lion backed into a corner, she's now a lion backed in a corner in defense of her child and heir. I wonder if she'll marry Jaime and make him (honourary at best, I'm sure) King. Questions, questions, questions.

The Starks have some developments as well, and I think they're the ones I'm least pleased about. Firstly, Jon has decided to take a very hands-on approach to convince the southron Lords of the White Walkers: Capture one. Personally. I don't find it outside of Jon's personality to want to do everything himself, but for fuck's sakes man, learn to delegate. He sailed AAAAALLLL the way from Winterfell to Dragonstone and then (Near-instantly, it would seem) sailed AAAAALLL the way from Dragonstone to the Eastwatch-by-the-Bay. Dumb. The wildlings can handle this task easy enough, they know the land better than some crow-turned-King.

In Winterfell itself, things are beginning to boil. The snake that never seems to find its death, Petyr "Littlefinger" Baelish, is back to his conniving. While the plot hasn't come to the fore, thanks to Arya sneaking around we see he's talking to the rowdy heads of various families. We can of course expect that his ambition to be above all the people around him. We know he seeks the North for himself and the power that comes with it. The actor playing him is really perfect. I had thought that everyone in Winterfell would treat him the way Arya and Sansa treat him: as a petulant child whose talk is meaningless.

Not so, and it's clear his corrosive schemes are oozing into the cracks which are clearly forming. With Sansa in charge, Winterfell is not held together as strongly as it should be. While she was right to say Jon should stay in the North, I think his decision to go north of the wall comes at the wrong time. If he'd delegated this task, he could be back in Winterfell and the simmering tensions would settle some.

Arya is now in danger. Petyr knows she is sniffing him out, and it wouldn't surprise me if he's already seeking an opportune moment to take her out. Chances are he underestimates her.

The most startling thing from this episode, to me, was this implication by Arya that Sansa is considering some regime-change of her own. Arya suggests that Sansa, little girl who learned so much from Cersei, is turning things over in her head and in her calculations she has at least considered sabotaging Jon. His assassination would leave her the next in line to rule the North.

While I can accept that Sansa has darkened in her outlook on the world after repeatedly, brutally being stepped upon by fate, the idea that she'd consider this line of action seems a tad ridiculous. Perhaps we're supposed to think it crazy that Arya thinks Sansa could do such a thing. The acting really seemed to suggest that Arya, a more observant character than most due to her intensive training, was levelling an accurate accusation.

Heretofore, I don't think there's been any indication that Sansa has fallen so abysmally as to honestly consider fratricide, even if she's frustrated by Jon's latest decisions.

Overall, this episode left me satisfied. Not an easy task considering the epic action of the last one.

P.S.: Was it just me or was Daenerys giving practically everyone in the Dragonstone war room the steamy "fuck-me" eyes? It'd be understandable, she is literally surrounded by some of the most intelligent, courageous, loyal, bad-ass, strong, manly men on the continent. Must be tough to keep that calm queenly demeanor.